The Seventh Value – Episode One: Human Dignity

In this first episode from our new podcast series The Seventh Value, we explore how the concept of human dignity became a core value enshrined within the European treaty and what it means today – particularly in light of climate change.

The policy-making system of Brussels feels a long way away from the lignite mines in Macedonia, Greece. Yet those policies are ending a way of life that has existed for generations for the miners, their families and their communities. It is widely accepted that the closing of the mines is better for the environment, but what is less clear is how EU funding will help individuals and communities survive and stop young people from moving away.

Host Julie Symonds and Ioli Christopoulou, Partner and Policy Director from Athens-based The Green Tank, discuss how we can transition towards a more sustainable future while keeping our dignity intact.

Episode One Credits
Guest – Ioli Christopoulou, Partner and Policy Director, The Green Tank
Host – Juli Simond, Are We Europe
Producer – Anneleen Ophoff, Are We Europe
Sound Designer – Wederik De Backer, Are We Europe
Coordinator – Federica Mantoan, Evens Foundation

The Seventh Value is a collaboration between the Evens Foundation and Are We Europe, which explores the values that make up the fabric and face of the European Union. Human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights. Over 70 years ago these founding pillars were written into the treaty of the European Union, but how have they withstood the test of time? What other values might be important today? Find out more here.

Read the full transcript of Episode One: Human Dignity

Ιoli Christopoulou:
It is a hot day and we're driving along a lignite mine in Greece. This is in the Northern part of the country, in Western Macedonia, as the region is called, where lignite mining is the main industrial activity. And in fact, one of the most important economic activities of the region for the last decades.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Zooming out into Brussels, there, decisions are being made that climate policy needs to change. But this seems to be far away from where we are as we drive along and we see the fumes of the various power plants. It's still distant that decisions in Brussels will actually have an impact in these communities and these local economies that have been so dependent on lignite for the last decades.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
We zoom forward to today and we are driving again along the lignite minefields. Already, some of the lignite power plants have ceased to operate. The air is already a little bit fresher. The impacts though, are still to be seen. The land is black and the environmental degradation can still be seen. Some of the workers that are working in this lignite power plants have been moved to plants that still operate, although they remember the plants where they started working in. They understand that the shift has now happened. The climate policy decided in Brussels has reached Greece. In fact, with a decision by the Prime Minister of Greece, Greece is getting at the forefront of this decisions, becoming one of the countries that will phase out lignite production the fastest, so sooner than what was expected.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
The worry is what will happen next? Jobs will be lost. Will there be opportunities for work? Will there be other opportunities, especially for the younger generations in this region to stay in the region rather than leave all the elderly behind?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Discussions are taking place in the local coffee house, where there is mention of millions of euros coming in, in fact, from Brussels suddenly in the region. And this creates some hope. It's still quite vague as to how exactly the fundings will reach each individual community, each individual member of the community. They hope that their children will benefit from this funding and they decide to organise, write a letter and participate in the next community meeting taking place.

INTRO Juli Simond:
Europe is built around six different values that make up the fabric and face of the European Union. Human Dignity, Freedom, Democracy, Equality, the Rule of Law and respect for Human Rights. Over 70 years ago, these founding pillars were written into The Treaty of the European Union. But how have they withstood the test of time?
From deconstructing the original meaning to reimagining the future.

Guests:
The six European values.
It's a hard question.
Good question.
This is The Seventh Value.
Yeah. This is just what comes to mind.
Democracy.
Free economy.
Free movements.
I'm thinking about the French. Fraternité, égalité, I don't know the third one.
Like law, justice stuff.
I'm a bit ashamed. I don't know.
No, I don't know the other ones.

Juli Simond:
Today, we talked to Ιoli Christopoulou, from the Green Tank.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Let's see how it goes. I haven't done this so professionally before.

Juli Simond:
Together, we try to solve one of today's biggest challenges, how to fight climate change with our dignity intact. In other words, what do we do with the EU's first value, human dignity. How about we play a quick one word game to get to know each other. So I will ask you a question and you will reply in just one word.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Okay.

Juli Simond:
Where do you live?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Athens.

Juli Simond:
What values are important to you?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Only one word?!

Juli Simond:
You can have three. How about that?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Respect, dignity, equality. I don't know. Justice. There's so many!

Juli Simond:
What motivates you to work hard?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
A more sustainable future.

Juli Simond:
What did you want to be when you were small?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
What I'm doing now.

Juli Simond:
And lastly, if you ruled your own country, what would be the first law that you would introduce?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
It would be an environmental law.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
I am the Policy Director of the Green Tank. We are a think tank based in Athens, Greece, aiming to promote and present policy solutions for a sustainable future.

Juli Simond:
Human dignity. It's one of those terms that we can believe we know quite well, but I wouldn't necessarily want to be quizzed on it. Before we delve any deeper into our subject of discussion today, how would you personally define human dignity?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Yes. I agree with you. It's not so easy to define. It means probably to just be, to be human, to be respected for that. But it probably also entails the potential of being human and to fulfill this potential, the opportunity to fulfill this potential and to become what one wishes or what one wants to become.

Juli Simond:
Do you know how or why human dignity ended up as the very first of the fundamental values mentioned in the treaty of the European Union?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Human dignity was not always a recognised objective of humanity. This came through time and very much linked also to sacrifices and costs and terrible tragedies that humans have been faced with throughout history. From wars to slavery to the slave trade to colonialism and various atrocities that have taken place. So, human dignity has become especially in the 20th century and after World War II, a recognised common goal of humanity.

Juli Simond:
Looking at your personal life, how do you try to apply human dignity in your day to day?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Respecting everyone and trying to be part of the effort to make this world better and to make it fairer and more sustainable.

Ursula von der Leyen (recording):
It was Robert Shuman who said: "Europe needs a soul, an ideal, and the political will to serve this ideal."
“European values are not for sale”

Juli Simond:
You just listened to a part of the State of the Union by Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission.

Juli Simond:
There's no hiding it, our planet is struggling with the effects of climate change. According to the UN, greenhouse gas emissions must be reduced to net zero by 2050 in order to preserve a livable climate. How should we envision that exactly, a livable climate?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
I think that we know what a livable climate is because this was our beginning. This was where we started. This was what allowed us to grow, to evolve. And there, even the choices that we have made – and sometimes there have been wrong choices, as we now can tell – these were all possible because we lived in a livable climate. So now we have to go back to that. To be able to secure a temperature, I mean a temperature in the planet that allows us to live in harmony with nature and to live allowing the natural systems to actually operate and make the planet livable.

Juli Simond:
Fighting climate change is about much more than bringing your reusable water bottle to work. We talk a lot about these individual choices, but pretty much every industry needs to move towards a carbon neutral economy. Starting with the way that we produce energy. Is the era of lignite and coal officially over?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Indeed, in order to address the climate crisis, we need to start from the energy sector. So the energy sector accounts for almost three quarters, more than 70% of global emissions. There is some oil and there is some fossil gas, but to the greatest extent, these fossil fuels, solid fossil fuels, lignite and coal have been the basis. The end of the lignite and coal era is not just a theoretical or a declaration and declaratory idea. We have commitments by countries that are phasing out coal.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Coming from Greece, I'd like to say about this historic announcement in 2019 of the Greek Prime Minister at the United Nations committing Greece to phase out coal by 2028. This was a historic decision – not only because it comes from my country – but it was the first lignite producing country, lignite producing, so mining country that committed to a coal phase out within the European Union.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
This is significant because it also meant that change is possible, ambition is possible and realistic. And this is now seen across Europe with the increasing prices of carbon dioxide, pushing other countries as well, to commit to a phase out. So what we're seeing is a wave of coal phase out decisions. Even Germany, which is a very large industrial country – but also lignite producing and coal producing country, has committed to phase out coal by 2038.

Juli Simond:
If parts of the phase out are motivated by this industry no longer being economically viable, is that something that the climate fight depends on? Or is it enough to ask people to care about the environment?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I would say that this is why we have policy. And if we have the right policy, then we either create the incentives or the disincentives for a particular activity. And in this case, the Paris Agreement in 2015, which was the first breakthrough of a global agreement to commit to maintain, or to try rather, to maintain the increase of the temperature to 1.5 degrees Celsius was the trigger for further policy change in Europe. So if we have this policy changes, they create this disincentive or the tools, which can also lead to choices becoming economically no longer viable.

Juli Simond:
Mining and burning have had a disastrous impact on the environment and human health, both in the people who work in the industry and anyone living in the area. So theoretically many people would happily walk away from this industry. However, I can imagine that the people who've depended on mining as an income, and even as a cornerstone of their identity might feel a little bit different.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Yes, it is a little bit easy for us being far away from the lignite regions or the coal regions, not understanding the challenges and the impacts to say, "Yes, we'll walk away from the industry." But for generations, a lot of people have worked in this industry. It has become part of their identity as you very nicely put it. Or at least clearer to the outsider. But the in the agony and the fear of what may come after the change makes this transition difficult. What will happen next? What will happen to the incomes? What will happen to the jobs? How will these regions look like in a few years? So it's very understandable from the personal perspective and the individual perspective that there is this agony.

Juli Simond:
It's easy to look at coal communities as naive accomplishes in climate change. But the truth is they've been sacrificing their wellbeing and overall quality of life in order to propel the European economy. Are we turning our back on them?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
It is true that people and communities in the lignite regions and the coal regions across Europe have made sacrifices. Are we leaving them? Are we turning our backs to these communities? I think not. Maybe we did not think about these communities very much when they made their sacrifices for our prosperity, but now at least within the European Union, there is a commitment to ensure that the climate neutrality will be attained without leaving anybody behind. So this idea that the climate or the environmental transition, this green transition will take place, making sure that the social impacts will also be addressed. And this is why we do not refer only to green transition or an energy transition, but it's also a just transition.

Juli Simond:
So what are then the biggest challenges in ensuring that this transition is indeed just?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
The need for funding is great. And even the EU funds are not adequate. So we would need to ensure the advocacy of funding, mobilising additional funds. The second is, for the transition to be just, we need to make sure that it will also be sustainable. So the choices of investments will not lead us to the next transition challenge to a next similar situation as we have with lignite, the next dead end. So when we switch the economy in these regions, we need to invest in green solutions. There should be diversification of the economic sectors. And we must ensure that the local community is part of the discussion and is part of the solution. We do not plan for them, we plan with them. So listening to their needs and adjusting and having an ongoing dialogue, planning for the long term with the local community being engaged.

Juli Simond:
If green energy is good to go and countries are being incentivised to adapt the means of production and the ensuing products, then why are we still so slow? Who has the incentive to keep us on this track?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
We have been slow. There's no doubt. There will be always those that will fight change, especially if they have an interest in what was the previous status quo. But I think we need to accept that what we are faced with is a very big and serious challenge. Shifting our energy sector and then our whole economies, because this is what the transition is about. It's not just the energy sector. Everything needs to change. This is a huge challenge. It is not easy. We need to respect the problem, as they say. We need to recognise that this is difficult. But we need to continuously emphasise that there's no more time to be lost.

Juli Simond:
We've been talking a lot, obviously about the European Union, but is climate change borderless? Can we fight it regionally while still having a global impact?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
The EU, if we want to be truthful is contributing at this moment less to climate change than other regions. Right now, China is probably the largest polluter and contributor to climate change. But the atmosphere is one and the globe is one, and we share it. So we all have to contribute to the solution recognising also the historical dimension of the problem because Europe and the US and, and so the developed West and North are the ones that historically have contributed more to climate change. Leading by example is always something that can be admired upon, but also making sure that our historical responsibility is addressed.

Juli Simond:
What should the future look like then?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
It is hard to imagine exactly how it would be. But if I were to say what I hope it to be, I hope it to be sustainable in the very essence of the definition of sustainability. So ensuring that we can all meet our needs, live in dignity, but also ensure that the future generations will also have the opportunity to live in a different world. And it's hard to predict the future. It's very hard to predict exactly how it will be. So we can only hope that the world will be better, greener, more sustainable, more just. And this is what we strive to achieve. In the same way that after terrible wars and World War II, there was this creation of the UN Charter and the Declaration of Human Rights and trying to make sure that human dignity, human rights, peace will be secured.

Ιoli Christopoulou:
And it was visionary statements. But as humanity, we were hoping that now terrible tragedies will not happen again. We have not achieved it all. We don't want to see all the social impacts of that future and all the loss that will create. It's harder to imagine what the future will look like in a more positive sense, because it will be so different. We can think of some of the conditions that will be similar to what we imagine the past to have looked like, so before the industrial revolution, cleaner environment. There is quite an irony in that EU was founded in being an economic community of coal and steel. And now it is a community and a union aiming to become climate neutral.

Juli Simond:
We're always surprised where we end up. And I think this is really a sign that we cannot predict what the future would look like, we can only hope. Do you think that hope allows us to be more ambitious in that sense?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
Yes. And the ambition needs to be grounded in some evidence. So we need to have the science backing us, but also sometimes it is a leap of faith that we will make it. We will reduce our emissions by 2030, and we will have climate neutrality by 2050.

Juli Simond:
Today, we've only discussed one of the six values of the European Union. Human Dignity, Freedom, Democracy, Equality, the Rule of Raw and respect for Human Rights. If you could add anything to the mix, what would be your seventh value?

Ιoli Christopoulou:
And I would add something that is related to sustainability. But then again, sustainability is part of all of these. And if we want to attain sustainability, it is interlinked to freedom and democracy and human rights and rule of law. So maybe we were wise to choose those.

Juli Simond:
Thank you for listening to The Seventh Value, a podcast in collaboration between Are We Europe and the Evens Foundation. I am Juli Simond, your host. And with me in the studio our producer Anneleen Ophoff and sound designer Wederik De Backer.